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72SSLS5Chevelle Profile
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Registered: 10-2010
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 71
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Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????


Interesting read fellas, I am up in the air about my 4 speed. It's a 69' M21, not 100% correct for the car. It's well used and abused, and I really haven't driven the car to see how it's going to act when I abuse it at the track. I was looking at rebuild costs... and it may work out cheaper for me to just buy a Richmond T10. (depending on what my transmission needs) Plus, it will be all brand new vs. dealing with used/rebuilt parts. It would certainly simplify things for me to just order one and stick it in the car if my current trans turns out to need a full rebuild.

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1972 Chevelle SS 454/4 speed "tribute"
F/S car - almost done.
1969 Chevelle 2dr Hardtop - next on deck.
11/8/2010, 9:11 pm Link to this post Send Email to 72SSLS5Chevelle   Send PM to 72SSLS5Chevelle Blog
 
CortezLS6 Profile
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Registered: 08-2007
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Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????


quote:

TomCannon wrote:

Sorry Jim, I just had to laugh... 2.56 is a tow truck first gear? LOL emoticon



Seriously, hope it was worth the laugh because the car would go as fast launching in 2nd gear. The car didn't like it. emoticon

2.56x4.33=11.1 vs 2.20x4.33=9.52

jim



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Pure Stock LS-6, 4 Speed
12.21@115.32 2009 PSMCDR
11/8/2010, 10:06 pm Link to this post Send Email to CortezLS6   Send PM to CortezLS6
 
1971ls6 Profile
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Registered: 02-2010
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Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????


I have a like new m21 that liberty built for me, the case has been bushed and has the steel mid plate. I proved it to myself that it was about 2 tenths and 3mph slower with the 4.11, went with the wide ratio and 4.33. Lerum says the m21 works better for him. Anybody want a real nice fine spline large output m21? I want some mandrel exhaust.

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1971LS6 corvette
12.47 @114.8 psmcdr 2010
11/8/2010, 10:14 pm Link to this post Send Email to 1971ls6   Send PM to 1971ls6
 
1971ls6 Profile
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Registered: 02-2010
Posts: 13
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Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????


I have a like new m21 that liberty built for me, the case has been bushed and has the steel mid plate. I proved it to myself that it was about 2 tenths and 3mph slower with the 4.11, went with the wide ratio and 4.33. Lerum says the m21 works better for him. Anybody want a real nice fine spline large output m21? I want some mandrel exhaust.

---
1971LS6 corvette
12.47 @114.8 psmcdr 2010
11/8/2010, 10:14 pm Link to this post Send Email to 1971ls6   Send PM to 1971ls6
 
Mark Weymouth Profile
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Registered: 01-2008
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Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????


Tim as I stated and you suggest. If you hold one standard hold them all to the standard. In your case if auto's are not held to a standard then why would you be motivated to spend hard earned cash.

I would not expect anyone in your position should until everyone is held to similar obligations. Which brings us back to yours, Jeff's and Jim's comments in this and the V8Buicks posts. At some point the rules need to be upheld and followed. Reality needs to be checked once more like it was in 2000.

It really needs to be more of each individual racer showing some personal shame and trying to be honest. If all followed a simple guide like that we would all be more relaxed. It should not always be PS or FAST that needs to be on the line sometimes it needs to fall on each of us to be considerate of all involved in our beloved venue's.

Mark

11/9/2010, 10:45 am Link to this post Send Email to Mark Weymouth   Send PM to Mark Weymouth
 
philip roitman Profile
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Registered: 09-2010
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Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????


well said. Still hoping for 12's. in my 4260 lb beast. Best so far 13.109
11/11/2010, 5:29 pm Link to this post Send Email to philip roitman   Send PM to philip roitman Blog
 
JIM MINO Profile
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Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????


quote:

Mark Weymouth wrote:

Dave I like and applaud the direction you stated above.

My basic instinct is to not loosen the rules but go back to the rules and enforce them like Tim and Jim have stated on both the FAST and V8Buick sites.

In 2000 when guys like you, Terry, Casey and myself all got pulled over for a tear down on our cars I thought it was good. Some were gentleman and accepted they were outside the rules and FAST was born that Friday afternoon. Casey and I both passed and were the only two of the eight to do so.

After that I felt like any car that was faster than the Judge was so becuase they carried a better or bigger stick than I did. The race had a nice honest feel for several years after that. We all kept going quicker but nothing seemed to point towards people stomping on the rules.

The one item I think keeps being missed by many and I have brought up before is manual trans guys like myself. I do not understand how people can get upset with the light weight auto transmissions but turn a blind eye to Richmond Super T10's replacing M20, M21 and M22 trans in stick cars. They have several advantageous gearing combo's that easily trump the stock GM Muncie's. They even have custom options. They surely help these cars gain the same amount as a 727 with 904 guts. I would suggest if you are going to hit up the auto guys then hold the 4spd guys to the same standards. Why should a 12.20 ET 4spd car get a pass on the trans when if he had a Muncie he would run 12.40's or higher? I keep hearing Muncie's are not durable enough for a PS car. BS!!! My M21 in the Judge went through the first owner beating it to death on slicks, I racked up several hundreds of passes on it and the car accumulated 76K miles before it was finally gone thruogh. Never broke once. And the same basic history applies to my HO T/A and it has yet to be worked on. That is a bogus argument.

I do think checking auto trans' is a difficult item to manage in any tech situation. As you would have to take the Mopar, Ford and AMC trans' clean out of the car to do so. But obviously it could be done and maybe needs to be done. I would just suggest that the 11 and 12 second 4spd cars do not get a pass at that point. If you hammer one hammer them all.

Simply put RA IV GTO's, LS6 and L78 Chevelle's did not have T10's with custom gear ratio's.

The other suggestion is that it is not just the 11 second cars bending/breaking/mutilating the rules. Look up the ET stream also for tech. Maybe every car should be thrown in the hat and if you get drawn you get drawn. It would make everyone more honest top to bottom. Or after the first few times when the fastest cars are all checked you could switch over to everyone is subject to the hat in the second or third season.

Mark




Mark,
GM stopped production of the Muncie 4-spd in 1974 and listed the Borg Warner S-T10 as its replacement in their parts book. Because of this, NHRA accepted the BW as the legal replacement for the Muncie. In fact, some early '74's had Muncie's and later cars had BW's. I had a '74 Firebird F-400 that came with the Muncie (2.52 low) and a '74 TA that came with the BW (2.43 low). The Richmond 4-spd is the same unit as the BW S-T10 (they bought the rights from BW to mfg.). Yes, they have different ratio's, Muncie's have a 2.20, 2.56 (early) & 2.52 (late). BW's have a 2.43, 2.64, 2.88, etc.

I have used all of the above over the years and in my experience they usually run about the same times in my cars. You said the BW is worth 2 tenths over a Muncie! Not so in my case, or I would have one in my car. In fact, I tried a 2.64 BW in my car last year and actually ran about 2 tenths SLOWER! The lower first gear killed my 60' time. The lower 1st gear only helps if you have the traction. I used the 2.64 BW when I ran D.O.T. slicks many year ago but I use both the 2.20 and 2.52 Muncie now with street tires. They run about the same times but the 2.20 is easier to drive and the 2.52 only works on a good biting track. As far a durability, I think the Muncie is as strong as a regular S-T10 (not the iron case S-T10 with high-nickle gears) and I've been using a Muncie with street tires about 10 years now and haven't had a problem yet.
Jim
11/12/2010, 12:13 pm Link to this post Send Email to JIM MINO   Send PM to JIM MINO
 
chevy454 Profile
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Registered: 11-2007
Posts: 92
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Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????


I'll be honest with ya, if it ain't a Jericho, whether or not a stick car is running a Muncie or T10 isn't even a blip on my radar. Yeah, so they could feasibly change ratios, but so could the automatic guys...the clutch is still gonna be a *great* equalizer. At this point, there's bigger fish to fry...
11/12/2010, 1:10 pm Link to this post Send Email to chevy454   Send PM to chevy454
 


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