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CortezLS6 Profile
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Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????


quote:

threefidee wrote:

quote:

1971ls6 wrote:

I know a lot of you are thinking this, I am putting it out in the open, has pure stock become F.A.S.T?????



I would call some of it stock appearing. Not a FAST car but not a PS car.

Jody



Than Jody you agree the rules are not being met. I think Dave is right in line on this stuff. The participents "we the racers"need to meet the rules. What other method of keeping the race intacked? Nice reply DD!

Jim

Last edited by CortezLS6, 11/6/2010, 4:04 pm


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Pure Stock LS-6, 4 Speed
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threefidee Profile
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Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????


Jim, I remember the first time I saw a pure stock event in Ohio as I was invited to see my old RA 4 Judge take to the track after years of showing it. I was stunned to see what these cars were running as they were much faster than what I remember seeing in old magazine articles from when they were new. Then it was explained to me that these repop tires are much better than what they had back then and the other thing that helped with the 2 1/2 inch exhaust systems that were allowed with X pipes. Just these two things helped many cars and that helped me understand plus the blueprinting of the engines helped also but I did not think they should call the race "pure stock" as my interpretation of that term is "how it came from the factory". Now, over the last 10 years of attending and watching I have seen cars get even faster. Then you hear about what certain people are doing to go faster (Chevy, Pontiac, Mopar, ect...). This has been going on for years. People have figured out that the tech guys can check for lift, compression, converter size, ect but what can not be seen or checked is what gets taken advantage of. Is it just one person, no. This did not happen over night. We could never do a full teardown on 150 cars to make sure they are legit and I would bet that this thread is talking about more than just a small portion of racers so at this point (for me at least) if cars pass compression, lift and all the things that can be checked quickly if the need arises I would be ok with that. I don't want my head ripped off here, I don't have a front of the pack car and I do not get to race here every year but I really enjoy it when I do and I enjoy watching everyone else.

Jody
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CortezLS6 Profile
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Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????


WELL SAID JODY. Some neat stuff going down the track and fast. My point is we have rules and when people have cars to those rules it's pretty awesome. How far have we strayed from those rules and what will it take for people to come back to the rules???? People have bypassed tech and the threat of a tare down will bring people in line or the (people cheating) will just pass on the race all together. I prefer a smaller race of legal cars and not racing at any cost.

Jim

 

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11/7/2010, 12:16 am Link to this post Send Email to CortezLS6   Send PM to CortezLS6
 
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Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????


I believe some of you have a misconception of what goes on inside a "pure stock" engine. It's not always about having a bigger camshaft. You're sounding like a speed shop counterman trying to make a sale. With the exhaust limitations (no headers) it's more about keeping what compression pressure you have in the cylinders instead of letting it escape back into the intake manifold due to longer camshaft overlap. Next time you talk to a cam manufacturer, ask them what effect it has when you run a camshaft retarded about 4 degrees on a car with restricted exhaust and about how it affects power and at what rpm. Pure stock cars don't really need all the fancy speed shop parts just to go fast. 45 years ago, I bought a 57 Chevy 283 2 door post car that had high compression fuel injection pistons and a solid lifter camshaft. About four years later with a completely NHRA legal 283 with a stock hydraulic lifter cam and a 3 speed instead of the old 4 speed, the car was nearly 2 full seconds quicker. Not only did the car get more powerful, but the more I ran the car, the more things I found that would make the car run faster. Back then it was test, test and test some more. If the car ran faster after a change, keep the change. If it ran slower, don't change something else to try to regain what you lost on the last change. Evidently, some people just can't follow that logic. The ones that do will continue to go faster.

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Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????


quote:

John Brown wrote:

I believe some of you have a misconception of what goes on inside a "pure stock" engine. It's not always about having a bigger camshaft. You're sounding like a speed shop counterman trying to make a sale. With the exhaust limitations (no headers) it's more about keeping what compression pressure you have in the cylinders instead of letting it escape back into the intake manifold due to longer camshaft overlap. Next time you talk to a cam manufacturer, ask them what effect it has when you run a camshaft retarded about 4 degrees on a car with restricted exhaust and about how it affects power and at what rpm. Pure stock cars don't really need all the fancy speed shop parts just to go fast. 45 years ago, I bought a 57 Chevy 283 2 door post car that had high compression fuel injection pistons and a solid lifter camshaft. About four years later with a completely NHRA legal 283 with a stock hydraulic lifter cam and a 3 speed instead of the old 4 speed, the car was nearly 2 full seconds quicker. Not only did the car get more powerful, but the more I ran the car, the more things I found that would make the car run faster. Back then it was test, test and test some more. If the car ran faster after a change, keep the change. If it ran slower, don't change something else to try to regain what you lost on the last change. Evidently, some people just can't follow that logic. The ones that do will continue to go faster.




Good points,John, however,,,,,,


If it is to be as "pure" as the name implies, then you would think that eventually a particular combo will have reached "peak potential". Unlike FAST, there is supposed to be only so much you can do. At that point, any gains would, presumably, be very small. I mean, I consider myself pretty adept at putting together a good running big block Chrysler wedge, but, even when I had it FULLY sorted out I wouldn't expect it to be much better(if at all) than the likes of Spetzman, BK, or Paul P. Does anyone really think that there is much left on the table with those guys? I doubt it highly.

MB emoticon
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Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????


No doubt there is some truth in that too. But has everyone kept track of how fast they run with different brand of spark plugs? How about with clipped gap plug electrodes? How about with plugs that are indexed for each cylinder? What about setting the upper butterflys on the back of a q-jet so they never fully close? (Never heard of that one huh?) It may not be "in the spirit" but it's just a matter of bending a linkage just so. I could go on and on, since I raced and held records in both NHRA and AHRA back in the 60's and 70's. Same trial and error type of things still work today. Maybe some of the returns are small, but with things like X pipes and Dynomax mufflers being legal, some of the returns are pretty large. Another thing, mandrel bent exhaust bends are available from JC Whitney at very reasonable prices so you can make a free flowing exhaust system even for cars that no company bends pipes for.

Never give up the quest for better e.t.s.

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Mark Weymouth Profile
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Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????


Dave I like and applaud the direction you stated above.

My basic instinct is to not loosen the rules but go back to the rules and enforce them like Tim and Jim have stated on both the FAST and V8Buick sites.

In 2000 when guys like you, Terry, Casey and myself all got pulled over for a tear down on our cars I thought it was good. Some were gentleman and accepted they were outside the rules and FAST was born that Friday afternoon. Casey and I both passed and were the only two of the eight to do so.

After that I felt like any car that was faster than the Judge was so becuase they carried a better or bigger stick than I did. The race had a nice honest feel for several years after that. We all kept going quicker but nothing seemed to point towards people stomping on the rules.

The one item I think keeps being missed by many and I have brought up before is manual trans guys like myself. I do not understand how people can get upset with the light weight auto transmissions but turn a blind eye to Richmond Super T10's replacing M20, M21 and M22 trans in stick cars. They have several advantageous gearing combo's that easily trump the stock GM Muncie's. They even have custom options. They surely help these cars gain the same amount as a 727 with 904 guts. I would suggest if you are going to hit up the auto guys then hold the 4spd guys to the same standards. Why should a 12.20 ET 4spd car get a pass on the trans when if he had a Muncie he would run 12.40's or higher? I keep hearing Muncie's are not durable enough for a PS car. BS!!! My M21 in the Judge went through the first owner beating it to death on slicks, I racked up several hundreds of passes on it and the car accumulated 76K miles before it was finally gone thruogh. Never broke once. And the same basic history applies to my HO T/A and it has yet to be worked on. That is a bogus argument.

I do think checking auto trans' is a difficult item to manage in any tech situation. As you would have to take the Mopar, Ford and AMC trans' clean out of the car to do so. But obviously it could be done and maybe needs to be done. I would just suggest that the 11 and 12 second 4spd cars do not get a pass at that point. If you hammer one hammer them all.

Simply put RA IV GTO's, LS6 and L78 Chevelle's did not have T10's with custom gear ratio's.

The other suggestion is that it is not just the 11 second cars bending/breaking/mutilating the rules. Look up the ET stream also for tech. Maybe every car should be thrown in the hat and if you get drawn you get drawn. It would make everyone more honest top to bottom. Or after the first few times when the fastest cars are all checked you could switch over to everyone is subject to the hat in the second or third season.

Mark



Last edited by Mark Weymouth, 11/8/2010, 11:38 am
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CortezLS6 Profile
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Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????


Not a bad post by any means. The manual transmission thing for me was the 2.56 first gear was aweful. Tow TRUCK FIRST GEAR with the 4.33's. Car has always gone its fastest with the 2.20 first gear close ratio trans. I would guess it's worth tenth??? I think that Dan allows any gear ratio because you can upgrade fro a 3 speed to a 4 speed per the rules. The other flip side is how do you verify the gears installed in the auto's?

I'm finding carburation to be the toughest thing for me to manage. I pull the car out from the winter and just battling issues every spring. Just sitting too long with the dye in the fuel.

Suspension: I'm hoping by going to NO HOPS I can get some ET on the 60 fts. Other than that the car is about as quick as I can go with a 4 speed with this motor.
Just good discussion not arguement.

The other thing that is weird, is that when I tell other LS6 guys my setup they say they have tried it and are going the other way. I shift at 6000 and they shift at 6500 and it is weird how we differ on setup and think what makes a car go fast. Where and how you engage the clutch seems to be a huge factor, HUGE as far as I'm concerned!!!!!!


Jim

Last edited by CortezLS6, 11/8/2010, 12:35 pm


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GreenLS6 Profile
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Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????


If it would change anything -I would change out mine. Seriously would,I bought mine when my Muncie gernaded at NORWALK (BRAD Risings race) -Dan told me that guys were going with the richmonds so I called Summit racing and picked up a new one .Put it in that night and was racing again in the morning. Now I have the 4.56 in I put the close ratio trans back in. They didn't have MUNCIE replacement gear kits then. Now they do, Like Mr Morgan said " Liberty will make you ANYTHING you want in a Muncie now and they are bullit proof". IF they not only promise to enforce the rules -but DO . And bounce some clown cars - I'd be happy to change it back over.. But only if they do, cause then I'm just pissin money away for nothing!

I am still a little confused with the fact -No one has a problem switching back and forth with Muncie M20 wide ratios and the M21 M22 close ratios. Doesn't increase HP or reduce drag. While a KILGOR or a 727/904 hybrid trans reduces parasidic drag with lighter parts and frees Horsepower. Even Mahoney admits the gain - instead of 80 to 100 hp drivetrain loss down to 30 to 40. Seems like an advantage to me ,especially when you pair it with a higher efficiency (higher torque multiplcation) torque converter.( Like a Yank) emoticon

Last edited by GreenLS6, 11/8/2010, 5:33 pm
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Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????


Sorry Jim, I just had to laugh... 2.56 is a tow truck first gear? LOL emoticon

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