HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ???? https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/t1453 Runboard| HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ???? en-us Fri, 29 Mar 2024 06:28:19 +0000 Fri, 29 Mar 2024 06:28:19 +0000 https://www.runboard.com/ rssfeeds_managingeditor@runboard.com (Runboard.com RSS feeds managing editor) rssfeeds_webmaster@runboard.com (Runboard.com RSS feeds webmaster) akBBS 60 Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13374,from=rss#post13374https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13374,from=rss#post13374I'll be honest with ya, if it ain't a Jericho, whether or not a stick car is running a Muncie or T10 isn't even a blip on my radar. Yeah, so they could feasibly change ratios, but so could the automatic guys...the clutch is still gonna be a *great* equalizer. At this point, there's bigger fish to fry...nondisclosed_email@example.com (chevy454)Fri, 12 Nov 2010 13:10:54 +0000 Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13373,from=rss#post13373https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13373,from=rss#post13373quote:Mark Weymouth wrote: Dave I like and applaud the direction you stated above. My basic instinct is to not loosen the rules but go back to the rules and enforce them like Tim and Jim have stated on both the FAST and V8Buick sites. In 2000 when guys like you, Terry, Casey and myself all got pulled over for a tear down on our cars I thought it was good. Some were gentleman and accepted they were outside the rules and FAST was born that Friday afternoon. Casey and I both passed and were the only two of the eight to do so. After that I felt like any car that was faster than the Judge was so becuase they carried a better or bigger stick than I did. The race had a nice honest feel for several years after that. We all kept going quicker but nothing seemed to point towards people stomping on the rules. The one item I think keeps being missed by many and I have brought up before is manual trans guys like myself. I do not understand how people can get upset with the light weight auto transmissions but turn a blind eye to Richmond Super T10's replacing M20, M21 and M22 trans in stick cars. They have several advantageous gearing combo's that easily trump the stock GM Muncie's. They even have custom options. They surely help these cars gain the same amount as a 727 with 904 guts. I would suggest if you are going to hit up the auto guys then hold the 4spd guys to the same standards. Why should a 12.20 ET 4spd car get a pass on the trans when if he had a Muncie he would run 12.40's or higher? I keep hearing Muncie's are not durable enough for a PS car. BS!!! My M21 in the Judge went through the first owner beating it to death on slicks, I racked up several hundreds of passes on it and the car accumulated 76K miles before it was finally gone thruogh. Never broke once. And the same basic history applies to my HO T/A and it has yet to be worked on. That is a bogus argument. I do think checking auto trans' is a difficult item to manage in any tech situation. As you would have to take the Mopar, Ford and AMC trans' clean out of the car to do so. But obviously it could be done and maybe needs to be done. I would just suggest that the 11 and 12 second 4spd cars do not get a pass at that point. If you hammer one hammer them all. Simply put RA IV GTO's, LS6 and L78 Chevelle's did not have T10's with custom gear ratio's. The other suggestion is that it is not just the 11 second cars bending/breaking/mutilating the rules. Look up the ET stream also for tech. Maybe every car should be thrown in the hat and if you get drawn you get drawn. It would make everyone more honest top to bottom. Or after the first few times when the fastest cars are all checked you could switch over to everyone is subject to the hat in the second or third season. Mark Mark, GM stopped production of the Muncie 4-spd in 1974 and listed the Borg Warner S-T10 as its replacement in their parts book. Because of this, NHRA accepted the BW as the legal replacement for the Muncie. In fact, some early '74's had Muncie's and later cars had BW's. I had a '74 Firebird F-400 that came with the Muncie (2.52 low) and a '74 TA that came with the BW (2.43 low). The Richmond 4-spd is the same unit as the BW S-T10 (they bought the rights from BW to mfg.). Yes, they have different ratio's, Muncie's have a 2.20, 2.56 (early) & 2.52 (late). BW's have a 2.43, 2.64, 2.88, etc. I have used all of the above over the years and in my experience they usually run about the same times in my cars. You said the BW is worth 2 tenths over a Muncie! Not so in my case, or I would have one in my car. In fact, I tried a 2.64 BW in my car last year and actually ran about 2 tenths SLOWER! The lower first gear killed my 60' time. The lower 1st gear only helps if you have the traction. I used the 2.64 BW when I ran D.O.T. slicks many year ago but I use both the 2.20 and 2.52 Muncie now with street tires. They run about the same times but the 2.20 is easier to drive and the 2.52 only works on a good biting track. As far a durability, I think the Muncie is as strong as a regular S-T10 (not the iron case S-T10 with high-nickle gears) and I've been using a Muncie with street tires about 10 years now and haven't had a problem yet. Jimnondisclosed_email@example.com (JIM MINO)Fri, 12 Nov 2010 12:13:51 +0000 Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13372,from=rss#post13372https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13372,from=rss#post13372well said. Still hoping for 12's. in my 4260 lb beast. Best so far 13.109nondisclosed_email@example.com (philip roitman)Thu, 11 Nov 2010 17:29:52 +0000 Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13360,from=rss#post13360https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13360,from=rss#post13360Tim as I stated and you suggest. If you hold one standard hold them all to the standard. In your case if auto's are not held to a standard then why would you be motivated to spend hard earned cash. I would not expect anyone in your position should until everyone is held to similar obligations. Which brings us back to yours, Jeff's and Jim's comments in this and the V8Buicks posts. At some point the rules need to be upheld and followed. Reality needs to be checked once more like it was in 2000. It really needs to be more of each individual racer showing some personal shame and trying to be honest. If all followed a simple guide like that we would all be more relaxed. It should not always be PS or FAST that needs to be on the line sometimes it needs to fall on each of us to be considerate of all involved in our beloved venue's. Mark nondisclosed_email@example.com (Mark Weymouth)Tue, 09 Nov 2010 10:45:44 +0000 Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13357,from=rss#post13357https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13357,from=rss#post13357I have a like new m21 that liberty built for me, the case has been bushed and has the steel mid plate. I proved it to myself that it was about 2 tenths and 3mph slower with the 4.11, went with the wide ratio and 4.33. Lerum says the m21 works better for him. Anybody want a real nice fine spline large output m21? I want some mandrel exhaust.nondisclosed_email@example.com (1971ls6)Mon, 08 Nov 2010 22:14:42 +0000 Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13356,from=rss#post13356https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13356,from=rss#post13356I have a like new m21 that liberty built for me, the case has been bushed and has the steel mid plate. I proved it to myself that it was about 2 tenths and 3mph slower with the 4.11, went with the wide ratio and 4.33. Lerum says the m21 works better for him. Anybody want a real nice fine spline large output m21? I want some mandrel exhaust.nondisclosed_email@example.com (1971ls6)Mon, 08 Nov 2010 22:14:00 +0000 Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13355,from=rss#post13355https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13355,from=rss#post13355quote:TomCannon wrote: Sorry Jim, I just had to laugh... 2.56 is a tow truck first gear? LOL Seriously, hope it was worth the laugh because the car would go as fast launching in 2nd gear. The car didn't like it. 2.56x4.33=11.1 vs 2.20x4.33=9.52 jim nondisclosed_email@example.com (CortezLS6)Mon, 08 Nov 2010 22:06:57 +0000 Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13354,from=rss#post13354https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13354,from=rss#post13354Interesting read fellas, I am up in the air about my 4 speed. It's a 69' M21, not 100% correct for the car. It's well used and abused, and I really haven't driven the car to see how it's going to act when I abuse it at the track. I was looking at rebuild costs... and it may work out cheaper for me to just buy a Richmond T10. (depending on what my transmission needs) Plus, it will be all brand new vs. dealing with used/rebuilt parts. It would certainly simplify things for me to just order one and stick it in the car if my current trans turns out to need a full rebuild. nondisclosed_email@example.com (72SSLS5Chevelle)Mon, 08 Nov 2010 21:11:46 +0000 Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13346,from=rss#post13346https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13346,from=rss#post13346Sorry Jim, I just had to laugh... 2.56 is a tow truck first gear? LOL nondisclosed_email@example.com (TomCannon)Mon, 08 Nov 2010 17:27:22 +0000 Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13345,from=rss#post13345https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13345,from=rss#post13345If it would change anything -I would change out mine. Seriously would,I bought mine when my Muncie gernaded at NORWALK (BRAD Risings race) -Dan told me that guys were going with the richmonds so I called Summit racing and picked up a new one .Put it in that night and was racing again in the morning. Now I have the 4.56 in I put the close ratio trans back in. They didn't have MUNCIE replacement gear kits then. Now they do, Like Mr Morgan said " Liberty will make you ANYTHING you want in a Muncie now and they are bullit proof". IF they not only promise to enforce the rules -but DO . And bounce some clown cars - I'd be happy to change it back over.. But only if they do, cause then I'm just pissin money away for nothing! I am still a little confused with the fact -No one has a problem switching back and forth with Muncie M20 wide ratios and the M21 M22 close ratios. Doesn't increase HP or reduce drag. While a KILGOR or a 727/904 hybrid trans reduces parasidic drag with lighter parts and frees Horsepower. Even Mahoney admits the gain - instead of 80 to 100 hp drivetrain loss down to 30 to 40. Seems like an advantage to me ,especially when you pair it with a higher efficiency (higher torque multiplcation) torque converter.( Like a Yank) nondisclosed_email@example.com (GreenLS6)Mon, 08 Nov 2010 17:16:20 +0000 Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13342,from=rss#post13342https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13342,from=rss#post13342Not a bad post by any means. The manual transmission thing for me was the 2.56 first gear was aweful. Tow TRUCK FIRST GEAR with the 4.33's. Car has always gone its fastest with the 2.20 first gear close ratio trans. I would guess it's worth tenth??? I think that Dan allows any gear ratio because you can upgrade fro a 3 speed to a 4 speed per the rules. The other flip side is how do you verify the gears installed in the auto's? I'm finding carburation to be the toughest thing for me to manage. I pull the car out from the winter and just battling issues every spring. Just sitting too long with the dye in the fuel. Suspension: I'm hoping by going to NO HOPS I can get some ET on the 60 fts. Other than that the car is about as quick as I can go with a 4 speed with this motor. Just good discussion not arguement. The other thing that is weird, is that when I tell other LS6 guys my setup they say they have tried it and are going the other way. I shift at 6000 and they shift at 6500 and it is weird how we differ on setup and think what makes a car go fast. Where and how you engage the clutch seems to be a huge factor, HUGE as far as I'm concerned!!!!!! Jimnondisclosed_email@example.com (CortezLS6)Mon, 08 Nov 2010 12:27:53 +0000 Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13341,from=rss#post13341https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13341,from=rss#post13341Dave I like and applaud the direction you stated above. My basic instinct is to not loosen the rules but go back to the rules and enforce them like Tim and Jim have stated on both the FAST and V8Buick sites. In 2000 when guys like you, Terry, Casey and myself all got pulled over for a tear down on our cars I thought it was good. Some were gentleman and accepted they were outside the rules and FAST was born that Friday afternoon. Casey and I both passed and were the only two of the eight to do so. After that I felt like any car that was faster than the Judge was so becuase they carried a better or bigger stick than I did. The race had a nice honest feel for several years after that. We all kept going quicker but nothing seemed to point towards people stomping on the rules. The one item I think keeps being missed by many and I have brought up before is manual trans guys like myself. I do not understand how people can get upset with the light weight auto transmissions but turn a blind eye to Richmond Super T10's replacing M20, M21 and M22 trans in stick cars. They have several advantageous gearing combo's that easily trump the stock GM Muncie's. They even have custom options. They surely help these cars gain the same amount as a 727 with 904 guts. I would suggest if you are going to hit up the auto guys then hold the 4spd guys to the same standards. Why should a 12.20 ET 4spd car get a pass on the trans when if he had a Muncie he would run 12.40's or higher? I keep hearing Muncie's are not durable enough for a PS car. BS!!! My M21 in the Judge went through the first owner beating it to death on slicks, I racked up several hundreds of passes on it and the car accumulated 76K miles before it was finally gone thruogh. Never broke once. And the same basic history applies to my HO T/A and it has yet to be worked on. That is a bogus argument. I do think checking auto trans' is a difficult item to manage in any tech situation. As you would have to take the Mopar, Ford and AMC trans' clean out of the car to do so. But obviously it could be done and maybe needs to be done. I would just suggest that the 11 and 12 second 4spd cars do not get a pass at that point. If you hammer one hammer them all. Simply put RA IV GTO's, LS6 and L78 Chevelle's did not have T10's with custom gear ratio's. The other suggestion is that it is not just the 11 second cars bending/breaking/mutilating the rules. Look up the ET stream also for tech. Maybe every car should be thrown in the hat and if you get drawn you get drawn. It would make everyone more honest top to bottom. Or after the first few times when the fastest cars are all checked you could switch over to everyone is subject to the hat in the second or third season. Mark nondisclosed_email@example.com (Mark Weymouth)Mon, 08 Nov 2010 11:26:41 +0000 Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13340,from=rss#post13340https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13340,from=rss#post13340No doubt there is some truth in that too. But has everyone kept track of how fast they run with different brand of spark plugs? How about with clipped gap plug electrodes? How about with plugs that are indexed for each cylinder? What about setting the upper butterflys on the back of a q-jet so they never fully close? (Never heard of that one huh?) It may not be "in the spirit" but it's just a matter of bending a linkage just so. I could go on and on, since I raced and held records in both NHRA and AHRA back in the 60's and 70's. Same trial and error type of things still work today. Maybe some of the returns are small, but with things like X pipes and Dynomax mufflers being legal, some of the returns are pretty large. Another thing, mandrel bent exhaust bends are available from JC Whitney at very reasonable prices so you can make a free flowing exhaust system even for cars that no company bends pipes for. Never give up the quest for better e.t.s. nondisclosed_email@example.com (John Brown)Mon, 08 Nov 2010 01:57:52 +0000 Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13339,from=rss#post13339https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13339,from=rss#post13339quote:John Brown wrote: I believe some of you have a misconception of what goes on inside a "pure stock" engine. It's not always about having a bigger camshaft. You're sounding like a speed shop counterman trying to make a sale. With the exhaust limitations (no headers) it's more about keeping what compression pressure you have in the cylinders instead of letting it escape back into the intake manifold due to longer camshaft overlap. Next time you talk to a cam manufacturer, ask them what effect it has when you run a camshaft retarded about 4 degrees on a car with restricted exhaust and about how it affects power and at what rpm. Pure stock cars don't really need all the fancy speed shop parts just to go fast. 45 years ago, I bought a 57 Chevy 283 2 door post car that had high compression fuel injection pistons and a solid lifter camshaft. About four years later with a completely NHRA legal 283 with a stock hydraulic lifter cam and a 3 speed instead of the old 4 speed, the car was nearly 2 full seconds quicker. Not only did the car get more powerful, but the more I ran the car, the more things I found that would make the car run faster. Back then it was test, test and test some more. If the car ran faster after a change, keep the change. If it ran slower, don't change something else to try to regain what you lost on the last change. Evidently, some people just can't follow that logic. The ones that do will continue to go faster. Good points,John, however,,,,,, If it is to be as "pure" as the name implies, then you would think that eventually a particular combo will have reached "peak potential". Unlike FAST, there is supposed to be only so much you can do. At that point, any gains would, presumably, be very small. I mean, I consider myself pretty adept at putting together a good running big block Chrysler wedge, but, even when I had it FULLY sorted out I wouldn't expect it to be much better(if at all) than the likes of Spetzman, BK, or Paul P. Does anyone really think that there is much left on the table with those guys? I doubt it highly. MB nondisclosed_email@example.com (Mike Bonsanti)Sun, 07 Nov 2010 23:03:15 +0000 Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13335,from=rss#post13335https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13335,from=rss#post13335I believe some of you have a misconception of what goes on inside a "pure stock" engine. It's not always about having a bigger camshaft. You're sounding like a speed shop counterman trying to make a sale. With the exhaust limitations (no headers) it's more about keeping what compression pressure you have in the cylinders instead of letting it escape back into the intake manifold due to longer camshaft overlap. Next time you talk to a cam manufacturer, ask them what effect it has when you run a camshaft retarded about 4 degrees on a car with restricted exhaust and about how it affects power and at what rpm. Pure stock cars don't really need all the fancy speed shop parts just to go fast. 45 years ago, I bought a 57 Chevy 283 2 door post car that had high compression fuel injection pistons and a solid lifter camshaft. About four years later with a completely NHRA legal 283 with a stock hydraulic lifter cam and a 3 speed instead of the old 4 speed, the car was nearly 2 full seconds quicker. Not only did the car get more powerful, but the more I ran the car, the more things I found that would make the car run faster. Back then it was test, test and test some more. If the car ran faster after a change, keep the change. If it ran slower, don't change something else to try to regain what you lost on the last change. Evidently, some people just can't follow that logic. The ones that do will continue to go faster.nondisclosed_email@example.com (John Brown)Sun, 07 Nov 2010 18:32:56 +0000 Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13331,from=rss#post13331https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13331,from=rss#post13331WELL SAID JODY. Some neat stuff going down the track and fast. My point is we have rules and when people have cars to those rules it's pretty awesome. How far have we strayed from those rules and what will it take for people to come back to the rules???? People have bypassed tech and the threat of a tare down will bring people in line or the (people cheating) will just pass on the race all together. I prefer a smaller race of legal cars and not racing at any cost. Jim  nondisclosed_email@example.com (CortezLS6)Sun, 07 Nov 2010 00:16:27 +0000 Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13330,from=rss#post13330https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13330,from=rss#post13330Jim, I remember the first time I saw a pure stock event in Ohio as I was invited to see my old RA 4 Judge take to the track after years of showing it. I was stunned to see what these cars were running as they were much faster than what I remember seeing in old magazine articles from when they were new. Then it was explained to me that these repop tires are much better than what they had back then and the other thing that helped with the 2 1/2 inch exhaust systems that were allowed with X pipes. Just these two things helped many cars and that helped me understand plus the blueprinting of the engines helped also but I did not think they should call the race "pure stock" as my interpretation of that term is "how it came from the factory". Now, over the last 10 years of attending and watching I have seen cars get even faster. Then you hear about what certain people are doing to go faster (Chevy, Pontiac, Mopar, ect...). This has been going on for years. People have figured out that the tech guys can check for lift, compression, converter size, ect but what can not be seen or checked is what gets taken advantage of. Is it just one person, no. This did not happen over night. We could never do a full teardown on 150 cars to make sure they are legit and I would bet that this thread is talking about more than just a small portion of racers so at this point (for me at least) if cars pass compression, lift and all the things that can be checked quickly if the need arises I would be ok with that. I don't want my head ripped off here, I don't have a front of the pack car and I do not get to race here every year but I really enjoy it when I do and I enjoy watching everyone else. Jodynondisclosed_email@example.com (threefidee)Sat, 06 Nov 2010 21:15:16 +0000 Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13327,from=rss#post13327https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13327,from=rss#post13327quote:threefidee wrote: quote:1971ls6 wrote: I know a lot of you are thinking this, I am putting it out in the open, has pure stock become F.A.S.T????? I would call some of it stock appearing. Not a FAST car but not a PS car. Jody Than Jody you agree the rules are not being met. I think Dave is right in line on this stuff. The participents "we the racers"need to meet the rules. What other method of keeping the race intacked? Nice reply DD! Jimnondisclosed_email@example.com (CortezLS6)Sat, 06 Nov 2010 16:02:00 +0000 Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13304,from=rss#post13304https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13304,from=rss#post13304quote:1971ls6 wrote: I know a lot of you are thinking this, I am putting it out in the open, has pure stock become F.A.S.T????? I would call some of it stock appearing. Not a FAST car but not a PS car. Jodynondisclosed_email@example.com (threefidee)Fri, 05 Nov 2010 10:54:01 +0000 Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13296,from=rss#post13296https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13296,from=rss#post13296..nondisclosed_email@example.com (GreenLS6)Thu, 04 Nov 2010 22:34:12 +0000 Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13292,from=rss#post13292https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13292,from=rss#post13292It certainly seems like were at a crossroad and something needs to be done. We set the stage and used the FAST/Factory Stock Martin race two years ago and pulled off the most intense Factory Stock tech I've seen so far involving more than a few cars. Nobody's been seriously teched anywhere since.... Every single person I've talked to feels we are at a breaking point in both classes. Here's what I'd like to see for 2011: FAST cars: * tire rule: must be able to see all threads * mandatory Head Removal on any car running 10.25 or faster, if you know your gonna run faster than 10.25 you can tech in the thursday before the race. This will be a complete tech from carb to block. * anything on the entire car (except safety) that is not hidden must look stock appearing, no exceptions. * after each race any violation no matter how small will follow the car/driver with a asterisk and a explanation at the bottom of the page. * I hear some of the two steps sound bad from the spectator stands? Maybe that needs to be tamed. FAST is easy, most everything is allowed anyway,we just need to do it and if it's up to me it's a done deal starting the first race next year. Palooza? Hemmings will eat that up.. Factory Stock: Drop the fricken hammer, for christ sake it's gotten so far out of control I'm even thinking about building a car for the class. LoL. * Starting at Martin June 24th & 25th 2011 anybody with light-weigh transmission internals or crank/rods should be banned for life. * A anybody with an 11 second decal shows up Thursday, we have a hat with little tickets in the hat, one ticket will say trans, one will say oil pan and the last will say intake manifold and exhaust manifold. Each of the "11 second Guy's" will pick one and that's what will be teched on his car. We come up with guidelines (in writing) with a zero allowance. *Each of these guy's will be checked for ignition systems, weight of car, fuel systems (pumps), etc.. *Maybe we throw the fastest small block car in there too.. *tire rule *maybe have Copo and a select few come up with a better set of rules, the type of rules a guy can look at and build a car with-out having to make a phone call every time he does something. Put the shit in writing.   We have the stage if you boy's are willing to, let's do it.. The guy's who don't want to tech stay at home and don't come back. Every single legitimate racing organization out there has tear down rules and if you don't see the need or understand the need to do this, your the problem. That's how I feel..    nondisclosed_email@example.com (DaveDudek)Thu, 04 Nov 2010 17:44:50 +0000 Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13286,from=rss#post13286https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13286,from=rss#post13286Once again MONEY -EGO's and stupidity has ruined a great thing. Martin was just proof that some people will pay anything and do anything to be up front. Won't mention names yet .( Don't want to be threatened with a multi page lawsuit for speaking the truth ) Personally If you get caught with some of these things, Rot in hell and don't come back. None of us are saints but this has gotten ridiculous. So much for back to grass roots. Hopefully someone else starts a new series and enforces the rules with NO exceptions. Don't really care if theres 150 people, just need enough to make it fun again. Was trying to keep my mouth shut and sit back and see if they where going to do anything. Didn't want to look like a diKK before the christmas party. so much for that.   nondisclosed_email@example.com (GreenLS6)Wed, 03 Nov 2010 13:09:13 +0000 Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13285,from=rss#post13285https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13285,from=rss#post13285What about these "pure stock" mods: ALUMINUM RODS LONGER (THAN STOCK) RODS KNIFE-EDGE CRANKSHAFT LIGHT WEIGHT RACING PISTONS PRESSURE-BACK RINGS (DYKES, ETC) EXTRUDE-HONED CYL HEAD PORTS HIGHER LIFT (THAN STOCK) ROCKER ARMS MAX-AREA CAMSHAFT (CHEATER CAM) EXTRUDE-HONED INTAKE AND EXHAUST MANIFOLDS RE-WORKED CARB W/LARGER (THAN STOCK) CFM QUICK-LIFT FRONT SPRINGS (MOROSO, ETC) HIGHER STALL (THAN STOCK) CONVERTOR (AUTO) AUTO TRANS W/ LIGHTWEIGHT INTERNALS ALUMINUM DRIVESHAFT HIDDEN BALLAST IN THE REAR EXTREMELY LIGHTENED FRONT END (ACID DIP, ETC) Yes, "pure stock" has been severly abused by many. With no real tech, enforcement of the rules depends on the integrity of the competitor. Apparantly, "honesty is NOT the best policy" when it applies to "pure stock" drag racing. nondisclosed_email@example.com (JIM MINO)Wed, 03 Nov 2010 12:31:22 +0000 Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13284,from=rss#post13284https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13284,from=rss#post13284I believe that the quickest of the "pure stock" cars are becoming FAST cars with with stock cubic inches.nondisclosed_email@example.com (SteveA454)Wed, 03 Nov 2010 11:58:04 +0000 East coast + Fall air = MINESHAFThttps://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13282,from=rss#post13282https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13282,from=rss#post13282quote:1971ls6 wrote: Below is a list of what I am have been hearing or seeing since racing in this group: Electric fuel pumps Fuel regulators before the mechanical pump No air cleaners No air filters 5/7 swap cams Switch pitch transmissions Lose convertors 4 speed automatic transmissions Digital boxes Mystery wires in the engine compartments Eccesive lift front ends Shaved tires Wrong size tires Gutted dash's Turn signals Excessive spring pressures Illegal light weight internals As with any racing, you *hear* of all kinds of stuff, but you missed some: Oversized piston domes Lifters (ceramic, shimmed, etc) 904/727 hybrids Signature series camshafts BTW, I was under the impression they counted shifts @ Martin and that rumor was squashed? I will say this: I don't think eliminating MSD boxes and roller tips will accomplish a darn thing...nondisclosed_email@example.com (chevy454)Wed, 03 Nov 2010 10:34:51 +0000 Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13279,from=rss#post13279https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13279,from=rss#post13279Who techs the cars at the Factory Stock and FAST events? Maybe an independent person is needed,who has no interest in the cars competintg,just rule enforcement and sharp eyes.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Mus408)Wed, 03 Nov 2010 10:03:18 +0000 Re: HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13278,from=rss#post13278https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13278,from=rss#post13278I can't argue with you on almost every point.The word Pure is being abused. nondisclosed_email@example.com (cjfordman)Tue, 02 Nov 2010 21:12:42 +0000 HAS PURE STOCK BECOME F.A.S.T ????https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13276,from=rss#post13276https://bfastracingmessageboard.runboard.com/p13276,from=rss#post13276I cannot sit here any longer without throwing this out for discussion. I have been racing in this group for only 5 years and have watched this group of racing change over the years, the times continue to drop by a select group of racers at every race. I understand all about good air and track conditions, bad tracks and bad air. I have learned from my own car that it takes a lot to effect et's.I get that it is a lot easier to go from the 13's to the 12's than it is from the 12's to the 11's, but this is out of hand!!! What is going on with the top of the heap cars? How can some cars gain 6-8 tenths from one race to another. my original concern of the 11.50 numbers has been blown out of the water in the last two races. Why have tracks not shut down the cars when they hit the 11.50 mark without the proper safety equipment. Who is going to step up and put an end to the streching of the rules, to down right blatant cheating. The tech has become a joke, a select few know this and have now grown big balls and are slapping it in the racers and spectators faces with down right illegal antics. Below is a list of what I am have been hearing or seeing since racing in this group: Electric fuel pumps Fuel regulators before the mechanical pump No air cleaners No air filters 5/7 swap cams Switch pitch transmissions Lose convertors 4 speed automatic transmissions Digital boxes Mystery wires in the engine compartments Eccesive lift front ends Shaved tires Wrong size tires Gutted dash's Turn signals Excessive spring pressures Illegal light weight internals A select few are turning this fun race into a run what ya brung under the pure stock/factory stock disguise. I know a lot of you are thinking this, I am putting it out in the open, has pure stock become F.A.S.T?????nondisclosed_email@example.com (1971ls6)Tue, 02 Nov 2010 18:41:28 +0000